Final

Metanorn vs Whiners.pro

*Vote here*

Result will be released on the 7th July 21:00 GMT, one hour after the polls close.

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242 thoughts on “Final

  1. Although Dark_Sage is an ass, I just can’t help but like reading his blog. If I want to stay honest, I have to vote for Whiners.pro…

  2. Metanorn is an upstanding site, albeit having juvenile writers, while their opponent appears to be a Colony Drop wannabe without CD’s chops. It’s quite amusing how the tournament turned into a choice between Light and Dark sides of the Force, peanut butter and jelly, freedom and oppression, cats and dogs, Ing and Yang.

  3. I vote for Whiners because his site is useful and that he always say what he wants to say, even if it’s not really appreciated by others.

    And this automatically makes me a jerk in some people’s eyes. I vote for the idiot who only swears and is all bad. Which I can understand, especially if you haven’t seen the site before. But to ignore valid points and indepth posts about fansubbing because of a language that isn’t really that bad? It’s… yeah.

    So I’m a jerk, obviously.

    • Jerk. :P

      And it’s not simply because he swears as you and his fanclub seem to imply, it’s because what he says is actively hateful, e.g., telling people to slit their wrists, calling people cunts. (I’m only talking about his posts about other bloggers, which encouraged me not to read any of his other posts.)

      Also I find it amusing how he and his followers call everyone else’s work shit and tell them to kill themselves, then when people point out he is an asshole they say we’re ignoring his “points”, but when anyone criticizes him in even the most mild of terms they proceed to ignore what is said and laugh at them for being “butthurt”. Cue someone calling me butthurt.

    • I tried to read whiners.pro but my interest absolutely died off when I started. Too much negativity. It was just unpleasant to read. Well, art least, it’s just my opinion.

  4. The amount of content Metanorn provides is HUGE, I really do want to stress out the fact that Metanorn isn’t just “another generic episodic blog” because they’ve implemented many projects and written many posts that aren’t episodics ^^

    (Then again, I’m bias for Metanorn x3) Love their team <3

    • To get a bit meta, I just want to say that I’ve been overwhelmed by the volume and quality of feedback we’ve received. The greatest thing about making it this far in the tourney is that we got so many critical eyes on the site, and enough of them were vocal enough to let us know their thoughts. This is tremendously helpful to our (and I’m sure everyone’s) general mission of continuous improvement. Since Metanorn does have a very tightly knit community with lots of interaction between readers and bloggers – quite a bit of it outside the blog itself – we don’t always get a lot of feedback from new people. We’ve been taking notes, we will make our site even better, and for that purpose, I encourage more comments of criticism, especially if in reference to specific posts.

      For example, our tag team posts have received a lot of criticism, and it’d be great if specific ones were called out. Those actually don’t make up many of our posts – there are a lot right now because of a new season starting. Our episode 1 impressions tend to have multiple authors mainly to provide reactions from multiple viewpoints to new shows, so the parallel/disjointed structure is by design, but most of our episodics are single blogger deals. Maybe we can design it better. Personally, I’m curious about what people thought about the Tsuritama finale tag team post which I thought Overcooled put together well, letting her and my thoughts flow together. But maybe I missed something. A fresh perspective would be nice.

      As for Dark_Sage and the problems people have with him, I’m sure he’ll continue to do what he’s doing no matter what people say about him, and I think that’s a good thing. I used to browse 4chan heavily, and I’ve been involved in translation and subbing projects both as translator and editor, so I appreciate his perspectives on his reviews as well as his highly abrasive style of communication. That said, one part I do take issue with is telling people to die – even anon rarely went that far. Yes, it’s all part of his act, and I’m a very entertained audience member, but, as Yi said, whether or not you’re a dick on purpose as an act or just naturally one, you’re still a dick. Also, I do sometimes get profanity fatigue; the swear bombs can seem forced a lot of the times just to keep up the act. Hey, part of your image is that you just don’t give a shit, so don’t try so hard! Let the “faggots” and “fucks” and “cunts” fit in naturally instead of using them at every opportunity!

      I also think sub quality isn’t that big a deal – not because they’re free, but because almost all of them have reached the threshold of good enough. Picking nits here and there is fun and indeed constructive, but like anibloggers and anon so often do, it’s making a big deal over things that make very little difference. And I do love the fact that there are people who DO take that so seriously, because of the passion they have for something I care very little about. We need people with a variety of interests and passions in our communities, and it’s pretty cool that someone with such a niche angle to his blog made it to the finals. Never underestimate what a cult of personality can achieve, I suppose!

  5. While it’s been interesting following Whiners as an outsider in this tourney, I think it’s safe to say I don’t have any interest in reading his blog after this.

    The fansub reviews are certainly original, and it’s interesting to see the thought that goes behind what makes subs readable. But the nature of the posts means they’re basically all the same. Complain about grammar, reword a sentence, so they largely fail as articles for me. As a resource, I guess I’m just not anal enough about my subs that I particularly care about which one is slightly better. If he reviewed older anime where the sub quality differs far more widely and I’m downloading a batch torrent, I might be interested. But D_S appears to be allergic to any anime more than 5 years old, so nuts to that.

    And then there’s the fact that he’s an asshole. I appreciate bluntness, but this is being an asshole for the sake of it. It’s the kind of deliberately inflammatory language that fansubbers and 4chan in general use, where it’s all about trying to provoke angered responses. It makes him appear far more ignorant than he actually is, and sitting through the bile to get to the nugget of blunt honesty that he’s trying to get at is a chore that’s just not worth it.

    Surprised he got this far tbh. I was expecting a repeat of Colony Drop from last time and for a concerted effort to vote against him, but I guess people must just like that sort of writing. Can’t say I’m the biggest fan of Metanorn either, because there seems to be a serious lack of critical engagement with what they’re writing about (although I guess that depends wildly on each writer), but they get my vote for not writing faggot nigger go kill yourself etc.

    • CD was reviled not for their inflammatory style, but for hating every anime made this century; the absolute wrong side of the rails for this crowd. CD would probably be enormously popular if their tastes lined up with the modern fan.

    • If it was slander, how come you’re here again to stir up more controversy and advertise your blog in the process? If you didn’t like his take on your drama act, you should have cleared it up with him then instead of trying to backbite him now.

    • The only way I can explain how he got so far in spite of his flaming is to compare it to the Adam Sandler movie; Happy Gilmore. Sandler played a loud-mouth, douchebag with anger issues who switches from ice hockey to golf; a sport where the players are much more restrained. But because of his blowing up and ranting on the course, Sandler not only became a great golfer but a new found hit that brought increased the audience; albeit for the wrong reasons.

      What I’m trying to say is that maybe, maybe Dark_Sage got this far because he was abrasive and his personality made the tournament interesting. He was also helped by the fact that his fansub reviews are decent.

      To turn the argument on the head, you could say ‘it tells a lot about the audience that they would vote for Dark_Sage’ but then again the tourney is more or less, a popularity contest.

  6. Since SCAB lost last round… I just don’t have energy to vote. But will do this because it’s an obligatory vote. Go Metanorn!

  7. No offense to Metanorn, but you’re site is way too clunky for my eyes. I’ve read a few of your guys’ posts, some are good (like the one about the different Arcana in the Persona franchise) but most are…eh. Is there a need for a podcast (why RC??? why??), it just seems like you guys are trying to do too much to get an audience. I much prefer simpler and easy to read sites like Star Crossed, Whiners and Lost in America.

    Whiners is more informative, I’d like to know what fansub group to avoid (plus I love his posts about Hadena, total lulz right there) and Dark_Sage’s posts about the Anitourney preliminaries were very informative to me as a blogger as he gave out a lot of (cuss-ridden) advice to the newer blogs.

    In short = Informative > Same-old/clunky

    • Well we podcast to make things different instead of just having page after page of text based posts because some people like listening to us talk about anime.

    • Agreed. I honestly enjoy reading some of Meta’s posts; but it is pretty clunky and old. The design is really lacking. A lot of it makes me feel like I’m on the internet circa 2001.

  8. Out of all the digs at Dark_Sage / Whiners.pro, none seem to point out the most critical shortcoming:

    Dark_Sage doesn’t know Japanese and thus can’t grade translation quality that well. Wouldn’t it be really useful for a fansub review to grade whether or not the subtitles reflect what’s actually being said? Of course, this is a known and upfront limitation—that said, many decent translators post in the comments below articles to fill in a few holes, and a decent editor like Dark_Sage can often tell, without any real Japanese skills, when a phrase has a high probability of being wrong.

    (Along these lines, as meaningless and as silly as online voting is, I’m disappointed 8ths.in lost so early.)

    Obviously an English speaker can point out flaws in timing, typesetting, and script phrasing, not to mention the embarrassing number of grammatical errors made by some groups, and what’s what Whiners is about. These issues all legitimately detract from the experience. I don’t really understand why more people don’t care more about translation and sub quality, unless they watch without subs at all.

    Whatever you think about his writing and level of maturity, or even the accuracy of his review grades, Dark_Sage is doing something most people don’t, and at a scale that nobody else does.

    Most people don’t have that kind of energy (dedication? ego?) to watch multiple releases of shows they hate to separate the good from the bad.

    • I’ve always thought of D_S as working in tandem to 8thsin – D_S critiques the editing and syntax, 8thsin critiques the translation. With both blogs you can then make an informed decision.

      Or you can be a lazy fuck like me and just use Commie for everything.

  9. I vote for an original self-made, self-styled and true to his nature without pulling punches site (what good is a review site, if your content creators and intended demographic: fansubbing community can’t take actual blunt force critiques, as for the language and style he uses, welcome to anime fansubbing.. its not a nice place, you need a thick skin). Not to mention that beyond reviews, Dark_Sage and Whiners.pro releases shows occassionally as a group in addition to the fansubbing reviews. I think there is plenty of content diversity within the mind of one man to compete directly with Meternorn in regards to having 10 writers, except his posts are all on message and in sync. +1 for Whiners.pro

    • Whiners is pretty mild compared to the rest of the fansubbing community. And actually, it’s nothing new, in a sense – people have been complaining about edit quality, either in IRC or on forums or even in their own snobby heads (like I do :D) – but Dark_Sage is the first to put it into site form. Purely because I don’t think anyone else would have the sheer willpower to watch that many bad shows/edits each season to do such a pointless thing ^__^

  10. I can’t say I’m too impressed with the final match up.

    My thoughts pretty much follow what Scamp said. I’m personally not a fan of either blog too much, for various reasons.

    Whinners Pro… Dark_sage honestly does nothing but bitch about the same things again and again and again, and not only that, but he picks on mostly the same fansub groups everytime. Added to that, the guy knows no Japanese. Simply being a grammar nazi and an all out jerk just to be entertaining isn’t exactly what I call admirable writing.

    Just another asshole being a rude jerk for the sake of being a rude jerk. I’m disgusted by anyone that votes for this guy.

    Metanorn… OMG! that ugly layout! Its waay too busy, with so many dots and walls of text, its exceedingly exceedingly hard to read. Not only that, but the content isn’t really organized very well either. Too many “combo” posts, with various writers all throwing in their thoughts in a jumble that makes it extremely difficult to find anything cohesive.

    The writing for the site varies, with sometimes exceptionally well to damn horrible.

    Metanorn seems to be more about its writers having a good time amongst themselves, than any actual content that viewers and readers would appreciate.

    With so many writers, so much talent, its suprising how much of a clusterfuck the place is tbh…. Its okay when your design isn’t the best in the world, I mean RC and LiA and all those good blogs don’t exactly have the most stellar looking designs either, but at least they don’t make it hard to read and understand their content.

    So in a vote between the two, definitely going for to vote for Metanorn, but honestly, I’d have liked if a better blog had made it to the finals.

    • Metanorn proudly giving you epileptic seizures since 2008!

      Jokes aside though:
      “Metanorn seems to be more about its writers having a good time amongst themselves, than any actual content that viewers and readers would appreciate.”

      If that was the case, then we would have no comments or rather just comments from each other like: “Hey, Kyo, wassup?!” “It’s so cool, Hoshi! OC just zapped someone.” “Lol,jk!”… We rather have conversations with our commentors and have build a community who we hang out with, adding new people with time. I guess, it all depends on the demographics of our site audience.

      I accept the design comment though. Not the most friendliest out there and we do like to raise our colourful pompoms from time to time. Now that our servers have settled down along with a flow of content, we will be going for a redesign in a month. So, hopefully, the issues discussed would be addressed then.

  11. I’ll always vote for the asshole!

    Except this time.

    Shit I’m really at a loss here don’t have a clue who to vote for….whoever sucks up to me in this comment most gets my vote.

  12. Wohooo, the final at last! This tourney has gone on for quite some time, eh.

    Now, calm down everyone. Can we all agree to not have any hard feelings regardless of how the match goes down?

    What, no? Okay, how about this! I will give the loser a free virtual hug! How does that sound!? So, yeah, if Metanorn loses I will send all 10/14 people, virtual hugs. And D_S, I will give you a virtual hug if you lose. :P

    So, yeah, no hard feelings and good luck to everyone! This tourney has been quite fun. :P

  13. A lot of people seem to think just saying whatever you want to say—”Not pulling any punches”—is an admirable thing. Is it really? Just stop and think about it for a moment.

    Please don’t confuse being blunt and being intentionally a jerk. And especially don’t confuse being blunt with having something worthwhile to say.

    Malcolm X was blunt. Adding “nigger,” “faggot,” and “butthurt” to every other sentence is…

    • I guess it’s what sets D_S apart. But for the most part I think we should look at the content these two sites put out and what we believe is more beneficial to us when we watch anime. I get the first fansub that comes out so I don’t give a damn about translation quality. Metanorn has been helpful to me as both an anime fan and blogger so my vote is to them. But for everyone else just pick a criteria and run with it. No one can say your a dick for voting one way or the other as long as you justify your reasons with things you actually believe in. Though Malcom X being dropped during an Aniblog Tourney… Epic.

      • I made no public comments on content, quality, nor my vote. My comment only attempts to address the reasoning some have proposed for voting one way or the other (and kind of a general attitude I see around). I just didn’t want to call the commenters out directly, although at this point, it shouldn’t be too hard which ones I wanted to reply to. Anyways, I don’t think anyone is a dick for voting either way for any reasoning, but I can find certain reasoning or justifications to be silly.

        I should probably note further. I think it’s a valid opinion to think Dark_Sage’s style is entertaining or fresh or whatever. But to say that he is earnest is a bit silly; even more so if someone claims such sincerity is respectable.

        I think most people can understand intentionally inflammatory language for dubious entertainment values, but there are just a few (who have commented here) that seem to take it as a no-restraint “I-say-what-is-in-my-heart” thing —please, his being a jerk (or a comic I guess) is calculated—and those few love it for that as if that is automatically something worthwhile.

        Also, intentionally being a dick and unintentionally being a dick are still dicks. Entertaining dicks and malicious dicks are both dicks. Not-to-be-taken-seriously dicks and seriously mean dicks are also just dicks. Not caring about other’s opinions, but actually kind of do, while being a dick is, again… a dick.

        … This is too many dicks for me. ^ ^

  14. I don’t follow either blogs and both were kind enough to give feedback for Anime Gerad. I do agree Metanorn’s blog design is very “clunky” and not very pleasant to look at. Whiners is nice but could use a little bit more color.

    So I’m not sure if I’ll be voting.

  15. It surprises me a little how many people are so bothered by Dark_Sage’s harshness. If someone came up to me on the street and told me they wanted to marry me, I wouldn’t be able to take it seriously. If someone came up to me on the street and told me to kill myself, I wouldn’t be able to take it seriously. It’s just too ridiculous and comes too far out of nowhere so it ends up just being empty words. Not to mention the fact that he talks this way to almost everyone.

    • Personally, if someone on the street told me to kill myself and started cussing people out, I wouldn’t want to stick around and chat with them. Reading Dark_Sage’s posts is like reading 4chan in article form. Some people find him (and 4chan) entertaining, but is it so surprising that others are repelled by his attitude? I do like the idea of fansub blogs, but I’d rather read 8thsin. (Thanks to the tourney for introducing it to me!)

      • I wouldn’t either, but again, it would be the same for someone who was being overly positive. You acknowledge that he talks like he’s on 4chan… I’m not a person who actually visits 4chan, but yes, I do find it suprising that people are so against it. Like I said, it’s all just empty words in the end. It’s common from his mouth, and not uncommon on the internet in general. I’ve long been desensitized to this stuff, and I don’t even regularly expose myself to the worst of it.

        Besides, I’m not going to vote against someone just because of how they express themselves. Not saying that people choosing not to vote for him don’t have genuine, valid reasons to do so, but there have only been one or two complaints about him that have had nothing to do with his speech style. You start to wonder.

  16. I prefer to take whatever Dark_Sage says as purely entertainment rather than than him intentionally being a dick. To take what he says at face value and to take it seriously as well, that’s just simply… hilarious. I know Dark_Sage probably won’t stop talking the way he does, but if you are don’t want to illicit further insults to hurt your ego and stroke his, the best you can do is simply not respond to his provocation. That’s it.

    P.S. Whiners has my vote.

  17. After looking at all the data and taking public opinion into consideration I have decided to vote for what I think is the best blog. I really had to think about it because every site does have it’s merits. So my vote goes to RandomC.

      • If you’re going to cheat, you probably should be at least somewhat discreet. Especially if, you know, you’re representative of the site being voted on. I seriously hope they disqualify or recount for that indiscretion, if only for the rage it would generate (still pretty bad; other blogs have been disqualified for less).

        • If this came under cheating, I wouldn’t have done it. Or rather, even agreed to a comment on my own site. This is the age when every normal person has a phone and laptop/pc at home – add a plus if you work too. I know multiple people doing this before and same for now. This tourney has been very transparent and same for the anisphere communication by tourney staff and voters. I don’t see any issue here.

          • I don’t think voting with a laptop and phone is cheating.

            However, the tourney has not been transparent at all. The rules are super vague, and to this day, I have no idea what constitutes fair campaigning. It’s part of the reason I limited my campaigning this time around to only my most immediate social media (i.e. immediate to my blog).

            • I in no way represent the tournament, but I can at least outline the demonstrated: anyone is entitle to a vote. There are no requirements for voting. Poll embedding is highly discouraged. Voting multiple times (at least by connecting with different servers from the same source) is strictly forbidden.

          • Erm… why on earth would you NOT this falls under cheating? Is ‘one vote a person’ a particularly hard concept to understand? I know they didn’t outright state ‘you can’t vote multiple times’, but how is this in principle any different to the proxy voting that got blogs disqualified? The fact that they can’t verify such deceit has taken place? The ease of circumventing rules isn’t a defence against them. Beyond that, how do you not see the issue with what you did? It is, at best, dishonest. The point of the tournament is to ‘pitch blogs against each other’ ascertained by ‘popular vote’. By voting multiple times, you are degrading the votes cast by people who voted legitimately.

            • The main problem is that there are people who legitimately vote. Now, if it were only a fair proxy battle by both sides à la Jinx vs. Kuriosity… may the team who can get their hands on the most open IPs win!

            • Awww, let’s get our national ID cards or even photo IDs next time this happens, right? Do you really think 2-3 votes matter in a poll that will soon be reaching 1400 count in 25hrs?

              Though, yes to Yi, Tourney Staff hasn’t been really forthcoming on rules about ‘the allowed’ list except for proxy voting, which is mostly taken care of except for people desperate enough to write scripts to do so or even hacks to the system. It’s a known fact that no system is ‘fool/hack proof’.

            • Just look at the semifinals. Both Metanorn and Whiners won by a small 13 vote margin. If we account for you and that other person using phones and work connections to vote multiple times, your win margin would have only been 9.

              So yes, 2-3 votes DO matter.

            • Kyokai, 2-3 votes into a poll for each guy you “suggest” to do so, means most of them are fake or unreliable votes, because you’re “inciting” them to cheat the system.

              I wonder how long Scamp will stay silent thinking its all right to run a tourney in this way… :P

            • RTM, these two are the only we knows, there are likely a lot more on the behind making the results till now completely invalid, including last match with star crossed.
              Poor Dark_Sage reminding his guys that “they shouldn’t vote two times” on his blog…:(

            • This makes total sense now how there are >1400 votes in SCAB vs Meta as compared to >800votes total in Whiners vs LiA. It’s funny to cry foul on D_S regarding his low blows, but then come back make a ethically hypocritical to stuff the ballot box with more votes for themselves and then openly saying it’s okay because it’s not explicitly stated (despite this: “[12:55] [~wiill] the rules should say one vote per individual”).

            • This is a bombshell. Forget F-bombs and bloggers telling people to kill themselves – *this* has made me lose faith in mankind ;__;

      • It’s something for people to latch onto. Keep in mind, starting with the top 16, it would have been trivial for Metanorn to cheat its way through. There were some grievances then, but with Scamp running it, the tourney’s never been shy about the fact that it has competitors who are very able to manipulate the results.

        • If D_S want to win really bad and just want to vote counts, he can just simply ask to the fansubs group to vote for him and put a post on their site about this voting.
          Overcome 700 vote counts is very easy for him.
          Glad D_S didn’t do that.

  18. All the blogs I could see myself checking out regularly were gone after the QF (ironically, after the results were out, I saw an amusing comment saying that we were “truly down to all excellent blogs”). It’s disappointing to see mass episodic coverage holds so much clout when it comes to blog popularity. It’s only this year that I started reading aniblogs, and I’m already sick of reading episodics. It’s not that episodic blogs are inherently bad, but it seems to be the default form that aniblogs take, and the few good ones are buried amongst a mass of mediocrity.

    So I think it’s good that Whiners have somehow got itself into the final despite not being an episodic blog. I’d come across quite a few blogs which i thought were better, but it says a lot about this tourney that most of them fell early and I only ended up voting against whiners once (for GAR GAR Stegosaurus).

    I first came across whiners for its coverage on this tourney, and though at first I was put off by the relentless barrage of insults, half way through, as I got used to his style, I began to realise he actually had things to say underneath all the profanity. It wasn’t just about not pulling punches, it was also about having a point to make, even if I don’t always agree with the point. And the feedback he gave was the most constructive (if you care to look past the insults) I’ve seen anyone give in this tourney full of comments like “I <3 your blog!!!" Though Dark_Sage tend to come off as a 12 year old who still think using swear words is the cool thing, I think he deserves credit for making this tourney less of a circle jerking exercise in the very least.

    As for Metanorn, I've seen people repeatedly say they're not an episodic blog, so I've decided to have another go at checking out their content. Here's the details of my adventures in Metanorn:

    Checking out non-episodic content at Metanorn is easier said than done. Problem is episodic coverage of a lot of series tend to swamp over the non-episodic content. Also, navigation isn't easy at Metnorn because the site is so cluttered, and also they've encrypted all the menu items with their MetaSpeak: MetaArmour, MetaVerse, Tales From Meta… WTF does all these mean??

    I ended up stumbling across something that actually had loading time: turns out it was a game in VN format. I must admit I was very impressed that they even made their own game, and started playing it. On the 2nd screen I ran into a wall of exposition. Half way through it I was already lost and gave up because I couldn't stand the writing any longer.

    Next I checked out their podcast, or MetaVerse as they call it there. They had some anibloggers as guests, but the guest voices were quite quiet and I struggled to hear what they were saying. I decided to leave it on in the background while I check out some articles.

    For the first article I read, I can't actually remember what was said in it. Not only that, I had trouble remembering what topic it was about! I think it may have been a MetaPisodic or something. This is EXACTLY the kind of empty writing that give episodics a bad reputation.

    In the mean time, 5min in, the MetaVerse had degraded into two people talking to each other in extremely muffled voices. I literally couldn't tell what they were saying (but I imagine it was something along the lines of "What?? Stop mumbling! I can't make out a single word!") I stopped it as it was getting ridiculous.

    Finally, I decided to check out one of their MetaTorials (or "Editorials" as they forgot to encrypt this word). I had to give up on it about a third of the way through – I'd gotten to the stage where I had to re-read every paragraph because I kept zoning out. I think it was meant to be humourous, but it was so unfunny and dull it was painful to read.

    Honestly, guys, I give you 11/10 for effort and ambition, but you are in need some serious quality control. I find it incredible that, there's so much content, but not only did they fail to hold my interest, they actually repelled me (and I'm the sort of person who normally has patience to sit through wall of text articles).

    tl;dr: I could see myself visiting whiners occasionally to check out what fansubs to get and what random nonsense Dark_Sage has been pulling out of his arse lately, but I can't see myself visiting Metanorn again. So whiners gets my vote. Not that it makes much of a difference – I get the feeling that the legions of episodic readers are all getting behind Metanorn, and I'd be very surprised if they don't win this.

    • Mostly good notes Kajia, I suppose both contestant should really give weight to these sentences, because its one of the few real critic this tourney has pulled out till now. :P

    • Wow, that’s a wall of text. Good one. ~twice as long as average episodic blog entry but it was interesting to read, valid points.

    • This is what you call constructive criticism and I accept some of them. I have followed your comments throughout the tourney and usually they make more sense than the usual drama of “your blog sucks/ slit your wrists/ you should die/ why do you update so much/ podcast?!/ wtf, etc.” Though, you did use WTF. Lol.

      I accept that ‘MetaSpeak’ might not seem welcoming to everyone because we are a cult (since 2008), of our own and we have formed a niche in ‘sphere. A tight community of growing readers and lurkers who visit regularly for different reasons of getting old music, share their raging/itchy thoughts about the recent episode they saw or show enthusiasm about our off the wall content; the unepisodics if you will.

      And no, we are not the BEST aniblog out there (does such a thing even exist?), and our design needs getting used to. Though, as I said above to “NoOne”, we are going through the process of redesigning and hopefully have better navigation with user-friendly layout in a month or two. This came under planning after our server problems were solved along with myself finally settling down rather than shuttling off to countries.

      Coming to the content, it seems you floundered around our weak content and missed most of the gems. (Some of them were included in our Semi-final shoutout: http://metanorn.net/2012/07/support-metanorn-in-the-semi-finals). Not to mention, the one podcast where our guest had a technical issue with his mic. Met’Amour is still one of our best efforts and not knowing the cult, I don’t even want to judge you for not deciphering it.

      Though, whatever I say, if you don’t like what we write, it’s your opinion and even if you are a lost reader, we are fine with it. We can’t make everyone happy, let alone every visitor that stumbles in. I can also objectively say, all our content is not always ‘quality’ as the term goes, but it gets the job done and conversations started. The band of writers who write from 8 different locations have one thing in common: passion about fandom and sharing it with the community. Our season previews take weeks to compile and we always have extra projects lined up along with our series. Everyone is invested and gives their all; what more anyone should want? Now, their style varies and everyone has their own specialty but we must be doing ‘something right’ to receive 7.2million hits in 4 years of our running. I’m sure if we were so hard to understand, we would have gone extinct by now.

      • I don’t know that you’ll see this but I think given that people are actually looking for “genuine criticism” and are seemingly open to it (at this moment in time anyway) I think I have a point to make regarding the criticisms levied against MN here and particularly in regards to your last sentence.

        The design for MN for me, well, it isn’t a big issue. I’m fine with it personally. I can understand why some may have a hard time with it but for me, it’s fine. So no issues there. The pressing issue for me is, as a number have noted, the wildly varying post quality. I think the reason for this is multilayered but I’ll briefly pass over the main 2:

        1) Too many authors in one post. I know it’s meant to give variety or give flavour and a community spirit etc but honestly, it literally becomes an un-followable narrative at times. Jumping back and fourth from 6 people saying completely different things about the same scene is not actually conducive to promoting a) good writing and b) an engaging narrative for the audience to follow. Multi-person posts are fun sometimes but for the majority, they lead to a worrying level of disorganization that puts you off reading.

        2) No real focus in the posts. A lot of posts with single authors but mainly ‘tag teams’ seem to lack a “point”. Not to say they are pointless, rather, they lack a focused view which they are trying to espouse. It reads more like a stream of consciousness than a thought out and edited piece of writing. I guess that is fine for the casual fan community, but I would stake that this puts a lot of people off who “hate” episodic blogs, it only enriches the stereotype that episodics are just word vomit blogs – because there isn’t something inherently unique or interesting in the post other than the general thoughts which everyone has of their own, why would I read them?

        Lastly, I would add that I have nothing against METANORN, I follow and read it and have done so for the better part of a year. But no blog is perfect. And I I know this comes off harsh and I’m sure I’ll only get anger for it, but if someone really appreciated genuine criticism then I can’t see the issue and if this tournament really isn’t just a “circle-jerk” then listening to potential audience and criticism can only be a beneficial thing for the future. But I hold no illusions people will take constructive criticism (despite asking for and saying is okay) as personal attack.

        That said, I would also point out that views have very little to do with how much people enjoy your site. Yes regular readers come but by and large, the majority of your visitors are randoms coming in from google searches and indexes which rank you highly I guess as a long running and information-rich blog. Many much smaller blogs have a lot more discussion going on which I would say is more valuable / conducive to breeding continual and lasting readers. But hey, what do I know? Just my thoughts.

        Really, I’m just playing devil’s advocate, ’tis the finals and all that~

        • Hmmm I was going to write something similar, but Aelysium beat me to it. The multiple authors thing is often way overdone in the articles and doesn’t really offer much value beyond lots of general opinions. I remember one article on KS which was quite interesting to read, but what made it interesting was that it gave perspectives from people who shared the character’s disabilities. This is what made it different and worth reading.

          I had a look at the semi final promotion page, but most of the articles were on about recent anime I haven’t seen (this is just a statement and not meant as criticism). There was one article on villains which had decent points but I struggled a bit while reading it because I didn’t find the writing engaging. Another article about good characters which felt a bit bland. I’d read similar articles elsewhere that were better written. A lot of these articles felt more useful as a discussion starters rather than articles that stand by their own merit.

          Also, I didn’t known about Metanorn being their own cult. I guess it’s not surprising so much of it went over my head.

  19. Again with this episodic and non-episodic dichotomy. I thought we got past this silly nonsense the last tourney. Oh well…

    Assuming this dichotomy exists, if being an episodic is not inherently bad, then that Whiners made it into the finals while being a non-episodic isn’t an especially noteworthy thing. A good blog—regardless of its format for organizing topics, whether episodically or thematically—making it to the finals would be the good thing.

    About the quarterfinals… There were several blogs in there that I imagine would not be considered episodic blogs by most. Still, agreed. “Truly down to all excellent blogs” may have been an overstatement. There were truly excellent blogs out before QF, and there were some not-so-excellent blogs in the QF.

    “the feedback he gave was the most constructive”

    Not always. Most of the time, they were destructive and offer little concrete. Some of the time, they were meaningless. And some, like for my own, I still don’t know what to make of it. Well I do, but I’d rather not go into a rant… (p.s. Dark_Sage’s feedback for my blog is: “Lesbians are cool, but I’m not really a lesbian or a guy who gets off on talking to lesbians, so this blog isn’t my style.”)

    I find the accusations of the tourney being a circle jerk exercise trivial. If endorsing certain blogs people find good is circle jerking, then circle jerking isn’t that bad. It just sounds distasteful. Further, insulting certain blogs isn’t necessarily not circle jerking. Dark_Sage plays favors too. In any case, it almost seems as if those crying “circle jerk” are often those who are hard pressed to acknowledge most other blogs.

    Criticisms of Metanorn are mostly legit. I don’t completely agree with all the points, but many are valid concerns.

      • “If being an episodic is not inherently bad, then that Whiners made it into the finals while being a non-episodic isn’t an especially noteworthy thing.”

        True, but in the context that only the blogs that have lots of episodic coverage is capable of make it this far, whiners making it to the finals does give it some much needed variety. Ofc, it wouldn’t be so good if the content in whiners totally sucked, but I do think it’s at least an interesting blog, even I don’t think it’s one of the best ones.

        Regarding the constructive feedback. It’s true that a lot of his choices did seem whimsical (like the feedback for your blog), and a lot of his comments were just trolling for laughs, but he made some good observations as well. He just had a tendency to provide constructive criticism in a rather destructive way. When I said “the most” I meant in total as opposed to percentage, as I can’t think of anyone else who made as many in depth analysis of blogs content as he has in this tourney.

        I’m not saying endorsing other blogs is circle jerking. It’s just that I’ve seen very little other than the “I praise your blog and you praise mine” sort of thing going around. It’s a bit like reading monotonous positive reviews that never contain any criticism. To be honest, if there were a lot more balanced views in the comments, then someone like D_S wouldn’t even stand out so much. But as it is, he seems to be one of the too few voices willing to criticise. Hope that makes my position clearer.

        • Fair enough.

          “if there were a lot more balanced views in the comments, then someone like D_S wouldn’t even stand out so much.”

          This is true actually. We saw a lot of that during the first tourney. And we also saw a lot of that in the earlier rounds. Fair critiques from people I enjoy.

          In fact, I should note, and this is pretty important to this discussion, that Metanorn provided pretty good feedback for blogs themselves, albeit also only for blogs in the earlier rounds. I would link them, except… I don’t feel like digging. (Link them, Metanorn people!) But they are there. And they’re not bad.

          So on this front, I’d give the edge to Metanorn.

          “I praise your blog and you praise mine”

          There’s definitely a lot of this going around, but I think a fair number of praises are genuine. These serve a purpose slightly different from providing feedback. I like certain people, and I want to direct my readership to them. My readers know and trust my tastes, so I don’t write too much about the blogs I enjoy. (Plus, I’m lazy, which isn’t a good excuse.)

          Also, the flip could be true too. I won’t trash you, and I’ll even suck up to you, so you don’t trash me. That’s not exactly circle jerk, but it’s not much better either. I hesitate though to question any praise as non-genuine.

          Cheers Kajia!

          • Here’s the list of reviews we did for the Tourney II, covering 152 blogs in round 1 and 2: http://metanorn.net/tag/blog-review

            I would like to add here, quality is subjective. Something like beauty is in the eye of beholder. You might not like something but you neighbour can actually fall in love with the same thing. It’s that affinity effect, which can’t be really ‘explained’.

          • Hmmm I wasn’t paying close attention to the comments in the early rounds, perhaps I missed a lot of the feedback you were talking about. I was just going on about what I saw, which was most of the critical feedback coming from D_S, and most of the ones that didn’t revolved around site presentation and not the content. Negative feedback is often the most useful kind of feedback, but it can be uncomfortable for the author to read that what he wrote sucks, and I guess it just felt like the aniblog sphere is too interconnected for people to come out with straight criticism (thus the circle jerk accusation).

            Anyway, thanks the discussion!

            • Well, just like Dark_Sage’s overly negative criticisms, you have to dig around a bit to find the good ones among the milder toned critics. Not everything else is all roses and flowers either. ^ ^

              No problem. Love the long chat.

  20. What I think everyone’s missed about the Whiners site is that, the D_S character is really just an embodiment of our natural reactions to certain things.

    Like if someone did a really poor presentation at work, you’d be thinking in your head “This is utter crap. Please, floor, just open up and send me to Hell because it’d be better than being sat in this room.” Dark_Sage just vocalises what we’re thinking, often quite humourously. Even his most sadistic insults are pretty colourful.

    He’s basically the aniblog community’s version of Eminem :D

    • My natural reaction to seeing a poorly written article is to close the tab, not wishing the author would commit suicide. But maybe I’m too soft.

      • Maybe the first few times you read one, sure. But when that’s all that’s available to you, you start getting a little annoyed. It’s actually part of the reason I became a fansub editor – because a lot of what was being released at the time just enraged me so much that I would actually stop watching shows I wanted to watch because the subbing was so poor (yes, I am a fansub snob – comes with the territory).

        So instead, I tried to help the problems – like D_S does. The number of groups that pop up in the Comments section of his reviews saying: “Thanks for the feedback, we’ll try harder next time,” is simply staggering. Considering how defensive the fansub community at large tends to be, it’s good to see them actually engaging with criticism rather than dismissing it offhand.

        And this is D_S’s legacy. Bringing you better-edited subs :D

        • Well, that was in response to the claim that Dark_Sage’s words are the embodiment of our reactions, to which I disagree. So no. (Also, kind of ironic that you took my comment at face value…)

  21. By the way this is a message to the AniBlog moderators. Will you be putting out the completed bracket alongside the final results? I figured it’d look cooler like that than having them separate ya know? ^^

  22. D_S surely has his own style. Sometimes I find myself having really hateful or flaming thoughts but I never say them unfiltered. I think I will understand him better if I talk to him face-to-face. But here I see only his strong words: is he just being himself, is it suppose to be funny, is it intended to be witty? I cannot make clear conclusion. One thing remains true, his presence make the final round quite…colorful, to say the least.

    (=_=’)

  23. Aaargh this is such a frustrating final. D_S is an asshole through and through. He gives valid points on anime blogs but then he proceeds to trash talk them in a very offending way that really covers his valid points. He also covers it up by saying he’s just blunt but whatever (I still clearly remember him telling to proceed on homicide because of my shitty opinions). I just wish there’s some way to kill his big damn ego (which I doubt would disappear even if he loses) because it’s WAY DAMN TOO BIG.

    God, I hate hate hate hate hate D_S but I can’t not vote for him. He reaches climax as the most asshole blogger in the community, but I have to admit — I really like his blog. Stupid awesome fansub reviews, why do you have to exist!?!?! In all honest, Whiners.pro is a very good blog with a blogger, while being an asshole, has a VERY standout voice and even though you hate the things that he says at times, you can’t help but be entertained.

    I HATE YOU D_S (and probably a lot of the people in this tourney) but you have my vote.

  24. Stepping into the tumults of the blogosphere, specifically of aniblogs, something’s not right here. The dichotomous scene between the two parties here (as well as the infamous tertiary group called lurkers “Hey there!”) is…strange. I’ve followed Metanorn for a number of years, and after learning of Whiners.Pro I decided to visit his site for a gander, looking through what he has up on his site and (excusing my lack of attendance to your site since I never heard of it before, no offence), comparing between the two sites, from a ‘normal person’ perspective, I’m inclined towards Metanorn.

    Not because of the argument of episodic reviews or the ‘clunkiness’ which people have been mentioning here, which I will talk about later, but because of the people that visit each site. Whiners.Pro truly seems like another thread from 4chan, or the other side of the internet which I venture sometimes. Looking through not only Dark_Sage’s posts with the fansub reviews (I couldn’t find episode reviews, unless he doesn’t do them, but point them out to me if they exist so I can respond if it’s apt) but through some of the site like the archives and background/aesthetics of the page, honestly, there is a lack of difference between Metanorn & Whiners.Pro.

    Clunkiness is a pretty subjective term, which applies depending upon if you’re a patient person or so, and all the other circumstances revolving around that. If you’re on the spot, just a skim through, well, anything can be ‘clunky’ to be used, regardless of what it is; archives could be clunky with the whole ‘searching through for the fansub reviews you want’, but drop bars can be ‘too hard’ for just scrolling down. They both have a search bar to use but I guess typing a few letters for a search engine, something most of us do everyday almost, is too ‘clunky’, right? So, I don’t think either site wins in term of ‘ergonomics’ but neither site loses.

    Now, the premise for this tournament is a showdown between the different aniblogs and blogs present on the internet dedicated towards principally anime (but also all the bells and whistles like manga/podcasts etc), so the reviews should be on the anime. This I think is where Metanorn has the advantage; skimming through multiple posts on Whiners, it legitimately lives up to its name of ‘whining’ on the fansubbing quality. I don’t know Japanese personally, only a rudimentary level of knowledge after watching/hearing so much Japanese, but that doesn’t give any of us reason to just go and criticise sub groups because of potentially erroneous quality. The main reason is, they VOLUNTEER. They don’t get paid for it (as far as I know), they spend a bit of their free time which they could be using for other more entertaining activities to sub for the rest of us who don’t know or don’t want to do the translation/typesetting/QC and the rest of the chores, so I don’t know about the rest of you, but I appreciate people who take their time to do things like this, even if it is only half-hearted because where would most of us be if ALL the sub groups decided to just stop? Not a good place I suspect. Hence why Metanorn is a more conducive environment towards everything related to anime than Whiners because, looking between the comments and followups on both sites, the dichotomy is apparent in the discussion, with quite snidey/trolling attitudes on Whiners, to Metanorn’s friendly and open-minded outlooks, because honestly, who would really want to be the annoying troll in real life?

    Now, I guess I’ll just chuck in the last point being the whole ‘quality’ of aniblogging. I can’t really describe much more on Whiners since Dark_Sage looks like he just critiques (not sure, correct me if I’m wrong) fansubbing quality. Well, I guess anyone with a sufficient level of Japanese can do the same. Metanorn however critiques the ACTUAL anime, from animation to characterisation, the actual qualities that brings in anime lovers/enthusiasts. That’s what it should be focused upon, the ‘journey’ if you will, not the technical details of the ‘subbing’ because sometimes the subbing can actually detract the experience of watching anime. As for why there is a varying level of quality for Metanorn’s writing by Kajia, I don’t know if you know, but not all of the anibloggers came onboard at the same time, so there would be a relationship between writing quality and experience of aniblogging; like anything we do, the more time we spend, the better we get at it.

    Just a final addendum, not meant to ‘attack’ anyone or put them down, just to put in discussion for what’s really going down here, just thoughts. Heh, swear my psychology unit coordinator would love to see this kind of dichotomous microcosm right here.

    PS. Voted for Metanorn. Yours sincerely, A True Anime Fan :)

      • I guess it’s a choice then if you want to watch anime or not. If you don’t like it, then don’t watch it. I’ve seen bad quality subs too but there is something called ‘moving on’, onto the rest of the show. *Shrugs*

        • Yeah, because there definitely isn’t ever more than one group subbing a given show. Look, I’m sure you’d happily watch Hadena subs 240p streamed, but some of us like to get an idea of the quality of the subs on a given show to chose which subs we want to watch. I’d like to think that you generally wouldn’t have to endure a horrible script unless you deliberately sought it.

  25. Just a comment from me in regards to the criticism being leveled against both sides: why is this all coming out now? These criticisms should have been leveled as the tourney was progressing but they weren’t.

    The fact remains both of these sites have made it to this point because of they each have some merit. If these sites were as ‘piece of shit’ as some of you are going on to describe them then they wouldn’t be there.

    I am willing to say that each of these sites has a mission or vision that they are actualizing to their fullest potential and that’s why they are here. Just because you say something won’t change a persons vote because the people voting for them really do believe in what their site of choice does. That is why they are here.

    This is the finals people, these two, wether we like it or not are the best of the bunch when it comes to all the sites participating. You can level hollow criticisms but will this bring about change to how these blogs do what they do best… which is blogging.

    They both have seen massive success. They both should be given props. Vote for whomever you think is better.

    Again my bote is for RandomC. FTW.

  26. Since it’s the Finals, the guide question in my mind would be: Which blog would I read if there’s really just the two of them existing in the sphere. As much as other readers appreciate what D_S writes, I would rather read a blog that writes about the show, not about those who fansubs the show.

    In terms of how correct fansubs would help to better understand what the anime truly meant, I would also rather read Meta.

    Of course this post won’t be able to represent all the articles but still, to explain my point, I would rather read lvlln’s additional thoughts as to what was in the light novel of Nise because I care more on what’s missing in the anime than what’s incorrectly fansubbed. — In a sense, they wrote content about what was from the original form of media. This is unlike that certain Nise post of Whiners where it seems that they are editing the fansubs (of Commie I think) simply based on what was the situation that the anime flashes in the screen. Both have they own notable contribution in further comprehending the show but I think I’d be more interested on the original content of the novel since knowing that would essentially realign mistranslated parts by the fansubbers.

    • Here’s a little bit of trivia you might enjoy: Dark_Sage actually used one of my Nisemonogatari posts as reference in that fabsub deep dive post. It was about Guillotine Cutter, one of the antagonists of Kizumonogatari to whom Kaiki was compared by Koyomi.

  27. Gah, this is a long thread. Interesting stuff, though. Since many people are talking about how they wish other blogs were in the final etc, I think it’d be a good idea for everyone to post what their # 1 favorite blog actually is out of the 100+ in the original bracket, AFTER the results are announced of course. It’d be interesting to then tally that and see how it measures up to the tourney results..

    • It would be interesting, but the everyone you’re talking about would be mainly blog owners who care, not the entire voting population. Furthermore, that would be even more circle jerking than the original. The tournament system allows us to discover new blogs (or so it wants) but that would advantage blogs you personally follow since long.

      I’m way too serious about everything myself if I think of how to apply ideas like this.

      • I see what you’re saying, though I bet at least some people have a new favorite blog that they found out about during the tourney too.

  28. Alright, since I follow Metanorn, I really can’t tell you guys why I’m gonna vote for them without being biased, but I can tell you how I’m NOT going to vote for Whiners.

    Disclaimer: Everything I’m going to say are going to be facts, and ONLY facts. It is also only from my point of view, so I can’t say the same for others.
    ‘kay, here we go.

    Whiners.pro is a fansub review website. I have no idea if that counts as an aniblog and honestly, I don’t care since we’re only talking facts here. The point of fansubs is to translate Japanese anime and put subtitles in them so that everyone can enjoy them. So, by this logic, the translation is the most important part of fansubs, followed by typesetting and all that jazz. For this reason, I regularly visit 8thsin’s blog when a new season starts. Yet, I do not visit Whiners at all, why is that?
    Because my command of the English language is not so weak that I cannot differentiate between good/decent English and crappy English. Also, I wear specs but my eyesight is still good enough to differentiate between good font/typesetting and eye-cancer font/typesetting.
    If Whiners includes a translation review, it would be a different story altogether, but as it stands, I see the website as redundant. I have no idea why some people would see whiners.pro as a useful site unless they cannot speak English or have cataract, but hey, this is from my point of view so I can’t comment on those people.
    I won’t say anything about Metanorn as people would take it as bias or whatnot, but if I’m given a choice between 2 sites and 1 of them is useless to me, it’s pretty obvious which one I’m going to vote for.

    Since some people like to hate just for the sake of hating,
    Disclaimer: Everything I’ve said are facts, and ONLY facts. It is also only from my point of view, so I can’t say the same for others.

    • “Everything I’ve said are facts, and ONLY facts” … except for the bits that are just your opinion, i.e. most of it.

    • Considering manga blogs are included in this tournament, I fail to see how fansubs reviews don’t fall under that category.

      The fact that you can differentiate between poor and good English doesn’t at all void Whiners’ usefulness. By your logic, Metanorn is far more useless, as you much more readily summarise your opinions regarding a given episode than critique the English of the review.

      I’m unsure what purpose you believe fansub reviews hold, but they have uses far beyond what you described. Reading reviews helps me ascertain which group has the best script for the given show. Compare with Metanorn, which provides commentary for a given show. Dark_Sage does comment on things like typesetting, which can be quite significant in some shows. Of course, several of the fansubbers reading reviews take on board criticisms provided, which can have a direct impact on script quality. Dark_Sage links to other sites that review other aspects of the script where he can to complement his reviews.

      The argument that the initial translation is the only significant process in fansubs is inherently flawed. Translation is conveying meaning in one language through another. If the script conveys meaning poorly, it is poorly written. While a lot of the onus lies with the TL, editors clarify language to make a more coherent script. Typos, awkward phrasing and punctuation errors hinder the comprehension of what may be an otherwise flawless script.

    • Fact Check:
      > Whiners.pro is a fansub review website.
      True.

      >I have no idea if that counts as an aniblog and honestly, I don’t care since we’re only talking facts here.
      Fluff and commentary

      >The point of fansubs is to translate Japanese anime and put subtitles in them so that everyone can enjoy them.
      True.

      >So, by this logic, the translation is the most important part of fansubs, followed by typesetting and all that jazz.
      True. Go on.

      > For this reason, I regularly visit 8thsin’s blog when a new season starts. Yet, I do not visit Whiners at all, why is that?
      Not facts, but why the setup question?

      >Because my command of the English language is not so weak that I cannot differentiate between good/decent English and crappy English.
      Oh. I see. Unverifiable fact.

      >Also, I wear specs but my eyesight is still good enough to differentiate between good font/typesetting and eye-cancer font/typesetting.
      Again, unverifiable fact.

      >If Whiners includes a translation review, it would be a different story altogether, but as it stands, I see the website as redundant.
      Oh shit, what do we have here? Opinion!

      >I have no idea why some people would see whiners.pro as a useful site unless they cannot speak English or have cataract, but hey, this is from my point of view so I can’t comment on those people.
      Analytic commentary to support said opinion.

      >I won’t say anything about Metanorn as people would take it as bias or whatnot, but if I’m given a choice between 2 sites and 1 of them is useless to me, it’s pretty obvious which one I’m going to vote for.
      A leading commentary trying to persuade others to form an opinion. Again, not facts.

      >Disclaimer: Everything I’ve said are facts, and ONLY facts. It is also only from my point of view, so I can’t say the same for others.
      I do believe this statement is ironically false.

      So we have 3 real facts, 1 setup question, 2 unverifiable facts, 1 opinion, and 2 sentences related to that said opinion, and 1 false disclaimer.
      —————
      Sorry, I couldn’t resist since you said everything in between your disclaimers were facts. No harm no foul, but be careful when you say everything you say are ONLY FACTS.

    • Re-doing what skyofdreams started.

      >Whiners.pro is a fansub review website.
      This is facet of what the site offers. The primary purpose of the site is “providing fans with the highest-quality anime subtitles available for the absolute worst shows that Japan has to offer” (http://www.whiners.pro/about/). 50% true. .5 for 1.

      >I have no idea if that counts as an aniblog and honestly, I don’t care since we’re only talking facts here.
      Irrelevent commentary.

      >The point of fansubs is to translate Japanese anime and put subtitles in them so that everyone can enjoy them.
      This is dumbing it down a bit, and your terminology sucks, but yes. For the most part, this is true. 1.5 for 2.

      >So, by this logic, the translation is the most important part of fansubs, followed by typesetting and all that jazz.
      No, no, no. You’re right in the the purpose of a fansub is to create a script that provides an adequate understanding of the content within the show. However, this does not mean that translation is the most important. If a script has great translation but terrible English, nobody will understand it. If a script has shitty translation, but great English, then people will understand the English, but not what’s going on in the show. You need to have good English and good Translation, in addition to bearable timing, encoding, typesetting, etc., for a fansub to be great. Translation is not the apex of priority. False. You’re 1.5 for 3.

      >For this reason, I regularly visit 8thsin’s blog when a new season starts. Yet, I do not visit Whiners at all, why is that?
      See above. This isn’t a fact, either. This is a personal opinion and practice.

      >Because my command of the English language is not so weak that I cannot differentiate between good/decent English and crappy English. Also, I wear specs but my eyesight is still good enough to differentiate between good font/typesetting and eye-cancer font/typesetting.
      Not a fact. Personal practice. I’m also having trouble believing you, considering your glorious double negative. Also, if you’re got enough control over the English language, I’ll assume that the rest of your comment has perfect grammar.

      >If Whiners includes a translation review, it would be a different story altogether, but as it stands, I see the website as redundant.
      Nope. It’s “if X included Y”, not “if X includes Y”. Also, this isn’t a fact. You’re 0 for 1 on the English and 1.5 for 3 on the facts.

      >I have no idea why some people would see whiners.pro as a useful site unless they cannot speak English or have cataract, but hey, this is from my point of view so I can’t comment on those people.
      It’s “have a cataract”, not “have cataract”. Also Opinion! Not a fact! 0 for 2 on the English, 1.5 for 3 on the facts.

      >I won’t say anything about Metanorn as people would take it as bias or whatnot,
      You can’t take something as bias. You can, however, take something as influenced by bias. Also, still not a fact. 0 for 3, 1.5 for 3.

      >but if I’m given a choice between 2 sites and 1 of them is useless to me
      Numbers below 11 used in a non-statistical/mathematical sense should be spelled out. 0 for 4.

      >it’s pretty obvious which one I’m going to vote for.
      Unverifiable fact. Also, bribery is also an option.

      In summary, you have terrible English, half of the comments you say are facts aren’t, and half of the “facts” you say are false. You might be able to get some English pointers from whiners, though.

      • I found the English “good enough” as they said: enough to be understood, although not perfect. You’re nitpicking here. As for the content, I do agree with some of the points the two of you have raised.

      • >However, this does not mean that translation is the most important. If a script has great translation but terrible English, nobody will understand it. If a script has shitty translation, but great English, then people will understand the English, but not what’s going on in the show.

        Regardless of whatever is most important in theory, it’s more relevant to consider which aspect has greater variability among actual releases. It’s rare to see a script with such poor English and horrendous timing errors that a fluent English speaker cannot tell what a few of the lines mean. It’s not that rare to see translations with more than a few errors, even large ones.

        That said, for many shows (most of them, which is to say that most anime sucks or doesn’t aspire to be any good, which is not necessarily a bad thing), the actual translation quality is probably not that important anyway. On the other hand, embarrassing grammatical errors and awkward translations will sour any viewing experience.

        By the way, for those who are confused, the point of Whiners is that somebody else is watching lots of bad releases, so you don’t have to do it yourself. It gets pretty old watching 3-4 releases for certain shows to figure out which is probably going to do the best job.

        • Which is why you use Whiners alongside 8th (though he kinda died), notred, subcompare, and ji-hi to determine which group provides the best viewing experience.

          Dunno what you’re getting at.

    • @P32L
      Can’t argue much there, you raise valid points.

      @Skyofdreams
      Dang, I thought people will think that it sounds cool and won’t bother to look closely.

      @puddizzle
      I really want to say good things about your comment but here’s what i was thinking while reading your comment.
      >Valid point
      >Valid point
      >Dark_Sage
      >Dark_Sage
      >See above
      >Butthurt
      >Butthurt + nitpicking
      >Butthurt + nitpicking
      >Valid point
      >Nitpicking
      >lolwut?
      >Sucking up to Whiners
      :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

    • If it was true that translation is the only important part of a fansub, then why don’t we all just read notepad translations? Sure, translation is the crux of a fansub and fansubs don’t exist without them, whereas you can have botched jobs without other positions (such as typesetting and encoding, to some extent). But that doesn’t make those positions irrelevant.

      • To get the appropriate timing? This example was stupid. Rakkyo’s point isn’t that translation is the only thing that matters, it’s that he feels it’s what matters most and is confident in his own skills to separate the good English and typesetting from the bad ones. But please go on, we can’t have delicious drama if we don’t have two sides continuously coming back.

        Damn what am I even doing this is counter-productive for both my potential sources of interest.

        @Rakkyo I’m sorry if you’re not a guy, but not for you getting talked back so. Putting such a claim was asking for it.

        • So, why aren’t all fansub groups just Japanese translators who time to a Zero-raws encode or whatever? Are you ultimately saying that the rest of fansubbing is pointless?

          • Sorry for the lateness, distractions and priorities got in the way. Now I have to hurry up, the results are going to be released.

            That was the first answer that came to mind. I admit I know jack shit at fansubbing. I have a problem with your arguments, it’s that they are extreme and ignore my point. Everything is binary, and you reduce my argument to its “ultimate meaning”. I’m not sure of whether I’m getting my point accross with this choice of word, but it’s the first one that comes to mind.

            Also: pointless =/= of lesser importance =/= irrelevant

          • To answer more accurately: no, it’s not pointless, but I think it holds less importance. You’re obviously not going to have the same opinion, but hey, everyone accords a different importance to particular criteria.

  29. I like Dark_Sage’s writing style, his blog posts are actually funny, mean, and informative at the same time. While Metanorn’s blog posts are really dull and even if you swap the writers’ name, nobody will notice since all of their posts really generic and have no personality. While Dark_Sage’s personality on the other hand was really reflected on his posts. Also, has anime-blogging really going downhill like this? Just a couple years ago there were some excellent writers like tj_han or Dark_Mirage. And what we have now? Just a bunch of generic episodic blog 101.

  30. Vote goes to Whiners out of virtue of being focused on the way viewers experience the medium, and not the medium itself.

    Also, Whiners doesn’t have fucking emoticons over the comment section, isn’t turning the competition into a stupid “good vs. evil” match, doesn’t use fucking IMPACT to create their images (seriously Metanorn, IMPACT? Really? Are you _trying_ to look stupid?), doesn’t use watermarked images in their posts, doesn’t have tildes and weeaboo Japanese phrases everywhere, doesn’t admit to spamming terrible emoticons and initialisms everywhere (Anaaga, Miyu, you’re terrible people), and actually produces relavent content.

      • I honestly doubt Metanorn will lose with all their campaigning (and asking people to vote multiple time openly and publicly as seen just some comment above while the organizer Scamp from TheCartDriver continue to ignore the issue) so there won’t be much other drama unfortunately for us. :P

        • Ψ(`∇´)Ψ ヽ(´―`)ノ (*´д`*) (´・ェ・`) ヽ(;´Д`)ノΨ(`∇´)Ψ

          (◕‿◕✿) (」・ω・)」うー!(/・ω・)/にゃー!(」・ω・)」うー!(/・ω・)/にゃー (◕‿◕✿)

        • They can have their tainted win, if they so desire. It’ll simply prove naught but how pitifully low one can get in a popularity contest that surmounts to, as Dark_Sage puts it, sphere-jerking. Of course, if it transpires that Dark_Sage wins the tournament, it’ll make the win that much more satisfying.

        • It’s possible, but that just means less hours of butthurt all over the community. The delicious butthurt is inavoidable. I can’t imagine the Whiners guys not coming back. Look, I was typing this reply and there’s already one!

          Wait, they are the ones who campaign the most and endorse it but have they seriously explicitly asked for voting multiple times? D_S has an image of not giving a shit, but despite the comments he receives I can easily picture several of his followers doing the same for his sake. (aka the sake of dubious but oh so delicious entertainment)

          • Well, I really needn’t point you to it, but the leader of the blog admitted cheating and all but endorsed a commenter who admitted to cheating.

            As D_S has conceded, as much as he acts like he doesn’t care, he wouldn’t have entered if he didn’t intend to win. But, as has been pointed out, if D_S had such a large a desire to win, he likely could’ve gotten the tournament up on a fansub blog if he so wished.

            And there is a big difference between wanting to win and cheating. As little as other think of him, he has dutifully followed the few rules and regulations that the tournament has, more than can be said for the competitors. That people might cheat for Dark_Sage’s sake is irrelevant. Even if he was well aware of such activities, he would be complacent at worst.

            • I feel so sorry for all the Metanorn’s ex-opponent…
              especially Star Crossed, the votes differences are so close

            • I know that one, what I’m asking is whether they said “Vote for Metanorn with everything you’ve got!” or not, if possible with screencap for posterity.

              I’m not sure about what I understood from your second paragraph. You mean campaigning on the fansub’s sites right? This is such a marvelous source of votes. If you use it, you’re sure to win and everyone rages. If you don’t use it, you get the right to brag about either playing (more) fairly or how you could have won but played fairly unlike your adversary. A win/win/win situation like I’ve never seen.

              From what I know of, he was indeed more dutiful than a good bunch of the competitors. But people cheating for his sake being irrelevant? They are as irrelevant as Metanorn’s readers voting multiple times. Were the bloggers the only ones to cast several (three instead of one like they did) votes, we wouldn’t get a situation where 13 additional votes out of several hundreds would matter.

              Oh wait there are 10 writters over at Metanorn my argument is invalid! Gosh the normally dumb team vs solo argument is totally destroying me.

            • @Rolca:
              To my knowledge, they didn’t say anything more than “VOTE FOR US NOW!”, although that should be a given, as I doubt even Scamp could overlook a plea by the authors to cheat.

              I’m not sure what point you were making with the second paragraph, but D_S isn’t bragging that he is holding out, even if he is somewhat.

              In the context of his conduct during the tournament, of course theoretical cheaters he is unaware of are irrelevant! It’s the tournament’s duty to ensure people don’t vote illegally, not whose interests they are in. And, of course, if you are participating in such activities, it is the tournament’s responsibility to censure you.

              Knowing that cheating has taken place obviously brings into doubt instances where Metanorn won by a small margin.

              I can’t extract any meaning from your final paragraph, but I don’t appreciate the patronising tone (apologies if this wasn’t your intention).

            • I apologize for the lateness, distractions and priorities got in my way again. And this stupid comments layout doesn’t make things easy.

              @feal87 There seems to be an issue with the context here, but the “too” is suspicious… It’s directed toward one person in particular, but I still accept it.

              @P32L Sorry, I had begun typing this way back but I’m too tired to finish right now. I will post a more coherent reply later (after sleeping) if you’re still interested. Gotta admit my own interest has died down.

          • Oh feal, should I now add a screenshot of our IRC channel here where you explicitly said that you not only used your 4 IPs to vote for Metanorn but added 30-40 more via your sources? And today, according to your twisted definition, “Cheating is when you get caught.”

            For me, I didn’t cheat. I was vocal about my 3 IP voting because it’s there and is an option. I’m not a person to hide things and speak my mind. If you think that is cheating, it’s ‘your opinion’; if it was not allowed a tourney staff member should have intervened by now. FYI, at least 30% of our regular voters couldn’t vote in semi-finals because they got false proxy error, which was fixed by will, just a few hours before the polls closed.

            You guys sure have a lot of time going through my tweets (16k+ of them – kudos to you), to find one to a friend who exactly knows what I mean and no, it was not for multiple votes but to use his phone because he was traveling! And, at least recognize troll comments from quoting me or even will as if it’s the law. Sheesh.

            • Sorry, but that doesn’t wash. You told him to vote on his mobile TOO, which can only be interpreted as asking for multiple votes. If you’re going to play the multiple IP game, then I suggest inviting corocoro: http://www.whiners.pro/2012/07/this-stupid-aniblog-tournament-v-finals-2-remain/#comment-22892

              And when the hell did I EVER say ‘cheating is when you get caught’? I said that if you were going to do something so pathetic, you probably shouldn’t be so stupid as to flaunt it. Of course, I didn’t factor in the complacency of this tourney, but the principle is still there.

            • *shrug* ok let’s go through all the things clearly then…if you want to play this game.

              Yes, I did vote 3 times (work, phone, home) and asked my RL friends to vote ONCE for metanorn in the past matches (don’t remember clearly which match). The first is cheating, the second one is not. I hereby ask that my 2 extra votes are to be deleted from the match results! :P

              wiill didn’t fix the poll errors, but disabled the proxy check for web proxies (the far majority) resulting in people being able to vote (your extra readers) but proxy servers too.
              Nicely done, we had proxies in the last match and we likely have in this one too (everyone with a web proxy can vote even now. HURRAY!), but we don’t know how many and we did not know who won the last 2 matches because the difference was very slim.

              I was against this “reducing the level of the checks” in order to make more “readers” to vote because it was going to call in “problems”.

              I could go ahead with a lot more “insider knowledge” if you want. ;)

            • I now realise that you likely posted the ‘cheating is when you get caught’ bit in reply to someone else. Sorry for the misunderstanding (although it wasn’t clear enough for me at this time of night; feal, myself and others critising your actions are all distinct entities!) Admitting that you are aware someone forged 50 votes for you isn’t helping your case, you know. It’s not simply ‘my opinion’ that multivotes are prohibited, but the opinion of the tournament organisers (see: Dark_Sage’s comment).

              I truly fail to see how you can stand up and say you didn’t cheat. You know you circumvented the tournament’s rules, full stop. It’s pretty objective at that point.

              I agree that a tournament staff member should have intervened by now. A certain other blog was disqualified for a less blatant violation; it is only fair that you should face some consequences for your actions.

            • I’m sorry, but I’m going to have to go full retard here:

              For fuck’s sake, even a child in pre-school can differentiate if something like this is cheating or not. How badly fucked up does your standards and moral compass have to be to not understand the ethical difference in voting more than once by yourself? Don’t use transparency as a way to say ‘I’m not hiding any bullshit. I even open admitted to it as well!’ So your bullshit is out in the open, great!

              And the logic you use to defend yourself is demented as well: Everybody does it, so we will too. We will even actively endorse others that visit our site to do it so we can game the system and not lose.

              I shiver at the fact that behind the screen names, you are retards, I mean, people who live in our society. Retards, I’m sorry, slip of the fingers again, people who are either too immature or too idiotic to grasp the understanding of a fair game, ethics and honor. I hope you retards, I’m so sorry, people don’t become any of our bosses or leaders. I’d bet they’d be just like any of the CEOs for the big banks and drive the fucking economy to the ground. They would also game our system for their profit because everyone’s doing it and it’s not within the rules.

              Oh wait, I’m sorry I made such a wild comparison, I’ll just shut up now.

            • Wait, so there aren’t any anti-cheating measures in place any more? Congratulations, this tournament is now pointless. It is now obvious that none of the semi-final polls can be considered accurate, and, by extension, this poll. Oh well, I think it’ll be pretty obvious who was more desperate to win in the morning.

            • P32L, there are still TOR + Non-Web-Based proxies check + some integrity check.
              Far less than the necessary to assure the polls results. :(

            • Still, we’re talking about 13 odd votes. It’s pretty obvious that with any loopholes that we are relatively certain would have been taken advantage of the results of the previous round have been rendered all but pointless.

            • That IS cheating, no matter how I look at it. The reason it checks for IPs at all is to prevent things like this. Finding a way around that system does not make it suddenly okay. It’s not fair, because some of us were under the impression that the norm was to vote once and some of us do not have those extra votes as options.

              For most of the tourney I probably had five different IPs I could have voted from, but I made sure to only vote once in each poll. Now I only have access to my home IP, because I do not have internet access on my phone (I know, this is uncommon, but there’s no way I’m the only one), I no longer work, and cannot use my (former) university’s connection unless I want to drive an hour and a half away.

              If they were going to allow multiple votes from a single person, they would have actually allowed multiple votes from one IP. Their lack of action doesn’t change that fact.

              Also, don’t take this too personally since apparently everyone else was doing it too if I am to believe other commenters.

      • And all of that without taking in consideration that Metanorn actually produces great content, their reviews are always well written and a pleasure to read and not just a technical soulless review of the quality of some translation written with the skills of a troll.

        • What are you talking about? Every episodic review is the same, there’s no point in actually looking at them! Never mind giving links.

          Seriously though, writing quality on Metanorn does vary a lot.

  31. I find it hilarious that some people play the morality card and go after Whiners for being rude and whatnot, while at the same time they see nothing wrong with gaming the system by voting multiple times from different locations/devices and having their friends do the same. If people like Yi have such a huge problem with Whiners, they can always enlist their friends, relatives, colleagues, social networking buddies and anyone else within their six degree sphere to show us what’s really popular in the aniblogging world, because God forbid something not approved by the Aniblogosphere Intellectualism and Morality Commision should do well in the tourney.

    • Please don’t presume my position on Dark_Sage.

      All my comments thus far on this page address other people’s comments. My first comment responds to someone’s silly justification for supporting one way. My follow-up is in response to a lower comment that implies being a dick and being entertaining are mutually exclusive. Another addresses the tourney transparency. One more addresses a claim about the Dark_Sage’s style that I disagree with (but note, I have not said I disagree with the style itself). Finally, the longest comment thread I’m involved in talks about episodic vs. editorial, circle jerk, and Metanorn. I do touch on Dark_Sage’s critiques, but again, I offer what I think it does, but not whether I like it or not.

      I’m actually a bit confused why, of all the people on here, I’m specifically called out. This seems super silly.

      And please, calling someone out for being rude is not the same as playing the moral card. I can be annoyed at some people, as I am with you, but feel no moral superiority. (I do kind of feel an intellectual/logical superiority right now though, but that’s another issue.)

      Anyways, I might as well weigh in on my feelings on the whole gaming the system thing. Depending on what the blogger wants out of this tourney, her approach may be different. I personally don’t see a problem with gaming the system, but then again, I’ve never had much of a moral compass.

      • Out of curiousity, then, what do you see the point of the tournament to be? I mean, I’m not claiming cheating to be a reprehensible crime, but it kinda defeats the purpose and ruins the enjoyment of others.

        • Fair question.

          I’ll note first here that this is my feelings only. I do not speak for Metanorn, Whiners.pro, or any bloggers.

          I, as a blogger, want an audience. This tourney is a great way to get exposure. The longer I stay in the tourney, the more potential readers I can have.

          I don’t think that the sole purpose of the tourney is simply a comparison of stats. For that, we don’t need a tourney. I see the more important purpose of the tourney is to bring different readerships together, integrate them, and share them among blogs.

          (It is a bit sad though that instead of that, what we have in the finals is instead a split, but oh well.)

          Yes, I’m selfish and everything. But I am vain, as I imagine most of us bloggers all are.

          I had written a long post about this in the first tourney after some rounds when a lot of people were annoyed at my win because of my methods.

            • That’s not all. It’s not just advertising. It’s also having enough charm to encourage support from others.

              p.s. Thanks. It is pretty excellent. ^ ^

            • Also, this is my approach to the tourney. It doesn’t apply to all the other blogs here, whose advancement could be based on quality or other functions.

              I have to stress again that I do not represent the tourney, the blogosphere, or anyone else but myself.

            • Charming indeed. If I think of this entire tournament as an advertisement campaign (as you need charm in any campaign), then I see no reason why there should be any rules to limit proxy voting or voting on multiple devices. After all, an advertisement campaign is based on efficiency and effort (and charm!). Why should the tournament handlers disregard the votes of the hardworking few who have campaigned the hardest by proxy voting the most to ensure your site stayed advertised the longest?

              This is most unjust I must say.

            • No need to be ashamed by your approach, it is the most excellent way to think about this tournament. (I’m being serious on this note, no sarcasm intended.)

      • I called you out specifically because your constant equivocating got on my nerves, and because of your RC history. You advance the BS notion that fair game is not important in this competition. It would be bad enough if people cheated without bragging about it, but to hold it up as some sort of a triumph of one’s superior intellectual prowess is much more insulting than someone building the popularity of their blog on a trash-talking tough guy act. Even if it pains you greatly that the kinds of blogs that rise to the top tend not to suit your superior intelligence, this is no excuse for engaging in machiavellian scheming that creates a whole lot more bad blood in the community than someone calling for shitty fansubbers to die. Besides, if you’re willing to do anything to build popularity, why should the kind of tone Dark_Sage has adopted be off the table? Many people happen to prefer in-your-face to polite deceit.

        • You’ll instantly feel better if you think of this as an advertisement campaign. Everything action they have done makes logical and rational sense now.

          BUT! If you were to think of this as an actual competition, I pray you don’t have a heart attack or a stroke raging over the ethical complications of their actions.

        • A few things. First, I don’t commit my feelings for people publicly because those thoughts are my own. I prefer to only let my closer friends know my thoughts on specific people. If it bothers you, then it bothers you.

          Second, fair game is a loose term. Nowhere on this site suggests that you can’t vote with a laptop and an iPhone. I advocate fair game as much as I advocate pushing to the limits within the stated explicit rules.

          “It would be bad enough if people cheated without bragging about it, but to hold it up as some sort of a triumph of one’s superior intellectual prowess is much more insulting than someone building the popularity of their blog on a trash-talking tough guy act. “

          Yes, true. However, cheating implies violating a rule in place. The rule is not in place (at least I could not find it on this tourney site).

          “Besides, if you’re willing to do anything to build popularity, why should the kind of tone Dark_Sage has adopted be off the table?”

          I haven’t said Dark_Sage’s tone should be off the table. It’s not my approach, but I wouldn’t ask him to commit suicide nor have I ever said he needs to stop. A further point, I’m not willing to do anything to build popularity. I’m willing to do a lot of things, but not anything.

          Machiavellian scheming… What am I really scheming? The bad blood existed long before I commented here and has little to do with my actions. And I think all the animosity did not start from my “polite deceit,” but rather…
          I have little influence.

          On my RC history… I’m not sure what to say that hasn’t been said. In any case, should we keep it to Metanorn and Whiners.pro?

          Cheers, mixike.

          • Even if it’s not explicitly stated, it’s obvious that it was intended (hence the proxy checks, hence people getting disqualified for vote stuffing, hence the one vote from one IP deal instead of three votes per IP or something ridiculous like that) and it’s obvious that it gives you an unfair advantage (people who realize the previous point and people who couldn’t take advantage of the possibility to begin with). It is 100% cheating.

        • I just find it astonishing when people apparently in all seriousness claim that even blatant cheating is OK but (quite clearly affected) rudeness is a high crime.

          • But Dark_Sage is the force of evil! If he had won, his satanic plans would have tainted the aniblog sphere for all eternity.

            …Actually, that just makes voting for whiners sound even more appealing.

  32. Well despite the drama, I voted for metanorn anyways since I enjoyed reading that arcana post but seriously, cheating (yes, i call voting from different ips cheating… especially with a 13 vote difference) is not cool. Best of luck to both blogs anyways ^_^

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